America is once again reeling from a mass shooting that occurred today at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin, just outside Milwaukee. What we know so far is that seven people were killed, including the gunman. One police officer is in surgery after being shot several times.
This latest act of senseless and deplorable violence takes place less than three weeks after the Colorado theater massacre that left 12 people dead and 58 wounded.
In the wake of that shooting, New Jersey Sen. Frank Lautenberg and New York Rep. Carolyn McCarthy offered up legislation that would limit online sales of ammunition while placing requirements on gun dealers to report bulk ammunition sales. Among members of Congress, this puts Lautenberg and McCarthy in the same category as John the Baptist, "Lone voices crying out in the wilderness."
In the past weeks, we have repeatedly heard the details of that horrible night
in Aurora, Colorado. We remain shocked that it was legal for that young man to purchase all those weapons and bullets, including an AR-15 and 6,000 rounds of ammunition. And still, when the crucial question is asked, "What can we do so this never happens again?," the answer is always the same, "NOTHING!,” and so Milwaukee happens.
We can purchase any firearm we want, including a semi-automatic assault weapon, as if God and the Second Amendment created all firearms equally. Does anyone seriously believe the Founding Fathers imagined buying an AR-15 on line when they passed the Second Amendment and the rest of the Bill of Rights in 1791? How many innocent people have to die in movie theaters, fast-food restaurants, classrooms, and elsewhere before we acknowledge that something isn't working.
The Lautenberg-McCarthy bill will not end gun violence. The bill, however, is an important first step. Every member of Congress should search his or her soul when it comes to drafting and passing sensible gun control legislation. To shy away from tackling what has become a recurring nightmare is unconscionable.
Jon
10:59 am on Monday, August 6, 2012
Did the Founding Fathers imagine buying an AR-15?....Really? By that logic, did the Founding Fathers imagine a TV, a radio, internet? No, I don't think so. Freedom of speech is not limited to things from 1791. Just as the 2nd amendment should not be limited to muskets. The Constitution is a document of principles.
Why not ban cars or knives... they kill way more people than guns do. Being from New Jersey maybe you should help ease the gun laws and let law abiding citizens carry. Because right now in NJ the only people that carry are criminals and cops. When seconds matter, cops are minutes away.
Caldwellres
12:06 pm on Monday, August 6, 2012
Speech really hasn't changed much over the course of human history, just how speech and other forms of communications are delivered. For example, hate speech delivered via a newspaper printed on the Gutenberg press is versus hate speech delivered via blog is still hate speech. Whereas with firearms, the method of delivery actually enhances destructiveness. So, no the Founding Fathers probably did not imagine television, but speech has remained constant for the most part.
The idea that we could just give everyone a gun then all of a sudden gun violence would stop is unrealistic and dangerous. I sincerely hope that you do not really believe that this is the answer, particularly in one of the most densely populated states in the nation. It would promote vigilantism that would tear at the fabric of our nation and our country. You saw what happened with Trayvon in Florida.
Barry
2:33 pm on Monday, August 6, 2012
No one would argue that we are limited to our First Amendment rights as they existed in 1791, but that does not mean there are no limitations to those rights. We have all heard the example of someone maliciously crying out "Fire" in a crowded theatre. We cannot intentionally committ slander against someone. The FCC prohibits certain activities and language from being used on television, radio, and the Internet. Why then is it so preposterous to think that there can be no limits on the Second Amendment.as tryintosurvive points out. New Jersey has recognized this and put in place strong gun laws. I choose to put my faith in those laws rather than relying on a virtual army of people carrying concealed weapons. But since all states have different laws, federal laws are necessary in some cases such as on-line sales.
tryintosurvive
12:29 pm on Monday, August 6, 2012
The more weapons that there in the country, the more deaths are caused by them. The argument that any limitation on what types of weapons one can buy is limiting one's freedom is not valid.We don't let citizens buy anti-aircraft missles or tanks, Why then should we let them buy AR-15's or AK-47's? There is no practical reason why a private citizen needs them other than to be able to harm many people quickly. If you are a gun owner, you can keep your pistols or rifles. Let's just keep the really dangerous ones off the street.
John
11:56 am on Friday, August 31, 2012
To say any gun is more dangerous than other is asinine. Just because a gun looks scary does not make it any more lethal. Guns are guns. There are many reasons to own a gun, and hurting people is not one of them. I like to hunt, shoot targets and shoot skeet. A gun like a AR-15 or AK-47 is good for target shooting. Uninformed people like yourself are the problem. A .22lr kills more people than the "scary" guns and they are commonly used by youths. I used one in Boy Scouts. Also saying "If you are a gun owner, you can keep your pistols or rifles." an AK47 or AR15 IS a rifle. They fire the same ammunition as other sporting rifles. If you want to keep "dangerous stuff" off the streets I suggest getting rid of cars. Gun deaths are EXTREMELY low in comparison of car accidents, malpractice deaths, posionings, etc. Here's a modest proposal, if you want to stay safe don't drive, throw out all the noxious chemicals in your house and don't go to the doctor.
The only thing that bothers me a lot in this country is knee-jerk reactions with zero basis on actual facts. People like you, like to use narrow scope information, if using any information at all and "demand" that their bubble world is not burst. I suggest doing what intelligent people do. If you find an issue, FIRST look up BOTH sides of the issue, RESEARCH, then and only then can you come up with an opinion.
V
9:13 am on Tuesday, August 7, 2012
John Arvanites does not understand what "the Constitution of the United States" means, and therefore does not belong to the Congress. The safest place on Earth is a prison, and that's what Democrats will build for us given a chance, a prison camp where the benevolent (or not so much) leaders rule over the peasants. The choice here is not between "safety" and "dangers" - it is between freedom and enslavement. And yes, freedom is inherently dangerous.
Steven Colpar
1:26 pm on Tuesday, August 7, 2012
Maximillian – thank you for your staunch defense of the Constitution. Now about those Democrat prisons… will they be maximum security or the white collar type. i.e. Will I still have Wi-Fi and a tennis court, or can I bring my clubs?. Will we be rounded up by the aliens that Obama is summoning or just the National Guard?
Jake Smith
9:46 am on Tuesday, August 7, 2012
The great Charlton Heston said, "There's no such thing as a good gun. There's no such thing as a bad gun. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a very dangerous thing. A gun in the hands of a good person is no danger to anyone except the bad guys..."
Criminals just LOVE tough gun control laws that put restrictions on the law abiding citizen's ability to obtain a gun. Now criminals have all these potential victims with absolutely no way to protect themselves. A criminal couldn't imagine a better situation if he tried!
Gun control laws allow for more innocent people to be killed. Plain and simple.
But living in a free society means that sometimes a person with a gun goes off the deep end. But that number is still way less than criminals who kill innocent people. So are we all supposed to pay by having our freedoms taken away because of the few bad apples?
I am NOT willing to pay that price.
I'd rather pay the consequences of living in a free society than have my personal freedoms and liberties be taken away.
Look at Chicago. Tough gun laws, way too many innocent people murdered.
Stop looking to ban law abiding citizens from legally owning guns. Criminals always get illegal guns and innocent people who can't defend themselves are their victims.
Ed Dantes
10:15 pm on Wednesday, August 8, 2012
Well said Jake.
Jake Smith
9:46 am on Tuesday, August 7, 2012
I also want to add that I hate politicians who always look to politicize a tragedy and try to make themselves some kind of hero with the ill-conceived knee-jerk reaction and not looking at the facts. But of course, facts get in the way of their narrative, therefore they haven no use for them.
The killer at theatre was was a mentally ill person. No gun control laws would have ever prevented him from killing people.
However, a person who had a legal concealed carry weapon could have stopped him.
georges30
3:27 pm on Tuesday, August 7, 2012
almost right , I think the only people that should carry weapons concealed are law enforcment. Here's what I think should happen , if you want to carry a weapon you carry it out in the open. First it should be controlled , you need to have a firearms safety training program set number of hours and be able to fire and clean your weapon. 2nd apply for a permit w/ the cert of completing the safety program and pay a small fee for the background check ect , the county or state MUST approve or deny in 30 days.
SAFETY is always first , do you think someone would want to start a shoot out knowing there were many people openly packing.... I know it sounds like the wild west but it where we came from....
Ed Dantes
10:15 pm on Wednesday, August 8, 2012
GeorgeS30, I don't think NJ will ever allow Open Carry. The state claims concealed is safer as no one will grab at "your" gun. All of your other ideas are required already in NJ (not CO), In addition to having to re-qualify at the range every six months.
NJ simply just doesn't issue a Concealed Carry unless you are a Judge, Prosecutor, Ex-Police or Active Police. Read about the poor guy from NJ that was kidnapped (mistaken identity) by bikers and driven to the mid-west in the trunk and had to appeal three times to get his in Morristown.
Additionally NJ Police are currently supposed to Approve or Deny (with reason) Firearms ID cards and pistol permits in 60 days or less. I know people who have waited close to a year for pistol permits and up to 8 months for ID cards. NJ doesn't enforce the laws they create already. I do think you have the correct idea however.
Sadly the Theater in CO. has a policy forbidding Firearms in their theater, even if you have a carry permit. I think this sad event may have ended differently had people been able to fire back.
Caldwellres
2:01 pm on Tuesday, August 7, 2012
So are you saying people should be allow to have assault weapons? What is the purpose of possessing an assault weapon? The only conceivable need to have one is to kill people. No one here is suggesting that we ignore the Constitution. Rather, I think it is more than fair to say that people have the RIGHT to leave their homes and take in a movie or go to a religious service without having to fear being mowed down by an assault rifle or some white supremacist with a handgun and a bunch of ammunition. Why do these people have access to these weapons? No one wants to ban guns all together.
As for Chicago- Criminals get their guns elsewhere in states and other areas that do not have strict gun control laws.
So Mr. Smith I would love to hear your reasoning on not taking action on reasonable reform.
Ed Dantes
10:23 pm on Wednesday, August 8, 2012
Matt, I'm all for getting rid of "real" assault weapons. No hunter needs an inaccurate Uzi or any FULL Automatic weapon to hunt. However my little Ruger 10/22 is considered a plinkster with a 10 round magazine, however if I put a 15 round magazine some want to call it an assault weapon. That's ridiculous in my opinion. The same goes for my pistols, 10 rounds = OK, 15 = Assault weapon. NJ Politicians just love to go off have cocked and create laws that don’t work. The reason there is so much violence in Chicago is the criminals know the public is unarmed and the Police are under staffed. Remember when seconds counts, the Police are just minutes away. A gun isn’t good or evil, the person is.
John
12:22 pm on Friday, August 31, 2012
First of the definition of an assault weapon is VERY VERY loose. As Ed stated a target pistol with 1 round too many turns into an "assault weapon". As a gun collector I like my "assault weapons". I collect them just as you would collect stamps or bottle caps. Do I NEED them? No. Do you NEED a car? No, take the bus it gets you there.
Also, when heading to that movie theater I would be way more concerned about getting killed in a car crash or dieing because your doctor prescribed you the wrong dosage of your meds or possibly having a heart attack while watching the movie. All of those are more likely to kill you than some wack job.
Another note...Do you really think criminals follow laws? They will get guns even if there was a national ban on them. Also another fact...if you have a criminal record you CANNOT get guns. Period. The end. Criminals don't go out to get an FID, get fingerprinted, pay the 60 bucks, wait for god knows how long to get a gun.
I think the only real reform that needs to be made is changing some of the draconian gun laws like the rest of the country. Other than that I think NJ does a pretty good job at keeping track of where it's LEGAL guns are. Unless you have been through the wringer trying to get a legal gun in NJ, you don't understand how many checks there are.
Jon
2:01 pm on Tuesday, August 7, 2012
Matt, Barry and Tryingtosurvive - Travon Martin was on top of George Zimmerman, beating him to death so don't even go there.
And to compare an AR-15 to a tank is a little crazy. Let's be rational here. The right to bear arms - you can't exactly bear a tank (Bear means "to hold" for those that can't quite comprehend the 2nd amendment).
And should you tell the people of Syria, Libya and other countries fighting their government that they should not have AK-47s? "to disarm people is the best and most affectual way to enslave them" - George Mason
And if gun laws are so great why is Chicago the murder capital of the US now? They even unconstitutionally banned handguns!! How did that work out?
Caldwellres
2:36 pm on Tuesday, August 7, 2012
Are you really worried that you will be "enslaved" by the United States Government?
Steven Colpar
2:36 pm on Tuesday, August 7, 2012
Jon – You saw Trayvon beating Zimmerman?!? Call the Sanford Police now!
You are so right in your observation “to bear” - in fact - Justice Scalia agrees and is in fact the only person that can something bigger to help ward off the aliens that Max warned us about above …. http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/07/29/602491/scalia-rocket-launcher/
Point taken on Syria and Libya- my fellow patriot! Every citizen needs to protect themselves from their government. BTW – can anyone tell me how much it’ll cost me to park my Apache helicopter at Essex County Airport? Apparently I can’t park it in my backyard (pool gets in the way) which means I won’t be able to respond as fast when Obama’s aliens come for us. Shame.
tryintosurvive
3:16 pm on Tuesday, August 7, 2012
OK lets be rational.
If the people who need these automatic weapons claim that they need them to protect themselves from the US government, then these are people who are probably too irrational to own guns at all. What are they going to do, start shooting at national guardsmen or policemen based on some perceived threat or injustice.
If the justification is that Americans are in the same situation as people who have never lived in a free society (like the Syrians and the Libyans) that seems pretty weak. They needed them to rise up against dictators who have ruled with an iron fist for decades. Is that really the position that Americans are in?
Barry
7:28 pm on Tuesday, August 7, 2012
Jon,
I think the Tavon Martin case goes beyond the scope of this debate, and choose to wait for the the court case to find out exactly what happened. But I don't need to be told the meaning of the word "bear" as it relates to the Second Amendment. What any of that has to do with Syria and Libya I do not know. Those are revolutions. If you are in the business of violently overthrowing the government, what is the significance of the law? Since you strike me as a conservative, and not a radical, I presume you have no revolutionary intentions and therefore keep the law. Do you think we so be allowed to carry AK-47s here, and if so for what purpose? Do you think an AK-47 toting electorate will keep the peace?
Jon
9:44 pm on Tuesday, August 7, 2012
And you think allowing AK47s will result in utter chaos? AR 15s are legal now and there is no chaos!!! You dont have to own a weapon if you dont want to. We all know the 90s assault weapons ban did not work. I have plenty of friends who now own AR15s and use them for sport and enjoyment. Let's not take people's rights away.
Barry
9:19 am on Wednesday, August 8, 2012
Yes, I think if Americans routinely carried AK47s for the purpose of maintaing peace we could very easily fall into chaotic situations. Note, I'm talking about a gun toting society, not a guy owing society. I don't know that the '90s assault weapons ban failed. It was allowed to expire due to political pressure. Did it save lives, I don't know. There is no way of knowing that. We can't prove what didn't happen would have happened in the absence of the ban. But you still didn't answer my question, you just fell to a defensive response. Do you think we should be allowed to carry AK47s? The real question is, do you, as an apparent conservative, see no limits on arms under the Second Amendment?
Jon
3:47 pm on Wednesday, August 8, 2012
I already told you the limits. Read the 2nd amendment! You can't bear a tank or howitzer. And your point is totally illogical. Nobody at all is arguing for everyone to carry an AK47 around. We live in a gun owning society were people can lawfully own AR15s and there is no chaos!! There is no difference between an AK and an AR15 - so you do not make any sense and are just running around in circles.
And more to the point here....do we really need another politician like John Arvanites trying to capitalize from these horrific situations? Maybe the right should try to capitalize on a story like this http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/03/judge_denies_handgun_permit_fo.html
Read that and explain to me how logically, constitutionally, or however you want that this man should not carry....
Jake Smith
12:31 pm on Friday, August 10, 2012
Well said on all your points Jon.
These anti-gun people are not rational. Plenty of people own semi-automatic weapons and we have no problems.
I heard that in NYC you can only get a handgun permit if you are a property or business owner. If that's the case that is the biggest act of discrimination i've ever seen! Law abiding citizens in the projects are subject to being victimized by criminals and gang members with no recourse. Hmmm - sounds like the democrats policy of "no guns for negroes" after the civil war, which took away a freed man's right to protect himself (especially when the KKK came calling). Greatest bloodshed in Chicago is probably innocent African Americans.
Caldwellres
4:35 pm on Wednesday, August 8, 2012
Jon,
There is chaos Jon. There was chaos in the theatre in Aurora, there was was chaos in the temple, there was chaos at Columbine, there is chaos in our cities when children are killed in crossfire by guns. I am talking about the type of guns that no one has a reason to have: automatic weapons and semi-automatic weapons. Why should anyone own a gun that is designed solely for the purpose of killing people?
Second, no one is trying to capitalize on this tragic situation. Mr. Arvanites sees a problem and has proposed that we do something to rectify this issue so that we can maybe one day stop gun violence so we don't have to mourn the deaths of innocent Americans on American soil.
It would be like saying "The economy crashed and financially devastated families across the country. We shouldn't talk about it though, because we don't want to 'capitalize' on the situation."
Problems need to be solved.
Jon
5:34 pm on Wednesday, August 8, 2012
No, you ate talking about a couple of isolated incidents that are broadcast everywhere. There are stories every single day where a legal gun owner defends himself to save his or her life and many others. You obviously only watch one source of news. An economic crash is a lot different then one guys shooting. And did you even read the article about the man who was kidnapped? Because we should be letting law abiding citizens of NJ carry.
Caldwellres
7:01 pm on Wednesday, August 8, 2012
People die from gun violence every single day. Those are just some of the more high profile examples. So let's try this again. Why should any non-military or non-law enforcement every be allowed to purchase an automatic or semi-automatic weapon? If you look at other industrialized nations with stricter gun laws, gun violence is significantly lower.
Jon
9:13 pm on Wednesday, August 8, 2012
Gun violence may be but overall violence is not. Guns prevent violence. Are you going to rob a store when you know the guy behind the counter has a 12 gauge shotgun? People die everyday from cars, let's ban those.
Yehuda Alan
10:57 am on Monday, January 7, 2013
Somehow you can never get away from the famous saying, Guns don't kill, people kill. Someone said that the founders could not have possible imagines the types of weapon available today when they passed the 2nd Amendment. That is an interesting although hypothetical argument, we don't really know what they would have imagined or not. However, one thing is certain, our society is very very different than the society then. We have violent movies, violent video games, atheism has replaced religion in schools, kids are not taught proper moral values and how to behave in society. So yes, times have changed but basic principles stay the same. You REALLY want to eliminate violence, let's face ALL violence is bad, not just violence committed with a gun, WE have to change the entire culture not just pass band-aid laws when tragedies happen.