Martin Matter Latest to Fuel Firearms Debate
The circus that is the Trayvon Martin affair is just the latest to bring our national obsession with firearms (whether one be pro or con) to the forefront of the discussion. I won’t belabor the Martin matter any further as I think so much misinformation and disinformation has been bandied about that there is not enough hard evidence for the casual observer to employ basic scientific method before formulating an opinion.
That a young man was killed with a firearm is simply enough of a starting point.
Let me attest, however, that I am not a rabid NRA member (or even a member at all), not a hunter (though I don’t begrudge those who are) and have owned firearms used for target shooting and, yes, personal protection. I am more than familiar with their care and use, having been an Expert Marksman with every small arm in the Army’s inventory when I served. I am also very much in favor of reasonable gun control, permitting and criminal background checks. I wouldn’t own nor would I purchase an illegal firearm.
Rather than offer any hard conclusions, my intent then will be to spur some thought and debate on the subject.
I also know full well that we have nearly as many firearms floating around in our country as we do automobiles and a good many of both aren’t legally owned, transferred or operated. Fine upstanding citizens buy, register and insure their cars legally and operate them safely with a valid driver’s license.
The less than “stand-up” among us?
Not so much … and the exact same thing can be said about guns. The people that none of us want to have them can get them if they want them, the niceties of the rule of law be damned. Trying to get illegal firearms off the street is as much an exercise in futility as would be confiscating all the illegal cars … and the numbers of both would be equally daunting.
I believe the latest statistics show that +/- 13,000 people were killed by firearms, in the USA, last year (a fraction of those killed by automobile, by the way). Conversely (depending upon which study one believes) there are purportedly somewhere between 800,000 and 2.1 million successful defenses of life and property, using a firearm, each year across the nation. If anywhere near true, that’s a startling ratio and, if incidence of cause and effect is the barometer, a hell of a case in support of gun ownership, no?
Keeping in mind, too, that some portion of that 13,000 met that fate with legal justification, it doesn’t appear the bad guys with guns (killing people, at least) are even statistically significant; representing 1/100 of one percent of the low-ball number of 800,000 “successful defenses.”
With firearms, like most everything else, there’s no substitute for training and experience but, how much of a factor this played in any of the so-called “successful defenses” is anyone’s guess.
The simple fact of the matter remains, however, that there are circumstances in which there is simply no substitute for, or better option than, the ready availability of a firearm.
Sadly, we do inhabit that kind of world and I truly hope that such circumstances never befall anyone, with or without a firearm close at hand.
b
3:51 pm on Thursday, March 29, 2012
"Conversely (depending upon which study one believes) there are purportedly somewhere between 800,000 and 2.1 million successful defenses of life and property, using a firearm, each year across the nation. If anywhere near true . . . "
Citations, Gary? Those numbers seem crazy high.
b
4:09 pm on Thursday, March 29, 2012
OK, found some of what you're talking about. But see:
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/SmithT1.htm
for heavy methodological concerns. Also the section beginning, "Finally, as K-G acknowledge, various statistics from their survey are wrong, questionable, or severely limited."
So using what you believe is correct, in the last 10 years, there have been somewhere between 8 and 21 million successful US gun defenses. Is there evidence of such incidents in our beloved West Orange?
Gary Englert
4:16 pm on Thursday, March 29, 2012
@b: As I don't necessarily subscribe to any of the studies out there, a quick Internet search will reveal they exist, as well as the huge number variables between them.
Gary Englert
5:45 pm on Thursday, March 29, 2012
@b: I fully understand the acknowledged and perceived methodological shortcomings of the available studies but, do believe the estimates of "successful defenses" (of life/property) by firearm (800,000 to 2.1 million) are annual, not for a decade.
Keep in mind, too, that some of them are as much as 30 years old.
Use of firearms in crimes/personal defense do happen in West Orange, though both are relatively few and far between.
I do recall an incident some years ago where a homeowner shot and killed a late night intruder in his home that was ruled justified.
What is suggested by the available studies and data is that the incidence of firearms use(compared to the overall population) is really very small and actual number of deaths smaller still.
b
6:37 pm on Thursday, March 29, 2012
Thanks for your replies, but now I'm more confused:
1. "As I don't necessarily subscribe to any of the studies out there . . . ": Wait, you don't believe in the studies you cite in your own opinion piece???
2. I understood the annual totals. I multiplied by 10 to get the decade totals. Therefore, "What is suggested by the available studies and data is that the incidence of firearms use(compared to the overall population) is really very small and actual number of deaths smaller still" doesn't make sense. Something that happens 8 to 21 million times in a decade is not really very small - it's actually pretty large. Compared to the overall population of ~300 million over the past decade, you're putting up numbers suggesting that potentially 3% - 7% of the population is involved in a gun defense. (Obviously lesser percentages if some folks are repeatedly involved in gun defenses. I want to stay away from those people.) An episode here or there in West Orange I'll accept, but again, your figures seem crazy high.
I'll end here, no need to keep going unless you want to reply again. I do appreciate your civic contribution, even when I disagree!
Gary Englert
7:09 pm on Thursday, March 29, 2012
@b:First, I'm not convinced that a definitive study (concerning "successful defense" by firearms) exists, given the disparity in the studies/data available, let alone their age.
Second, whether it be 13,000 in a year or 130,000 in a decade, that many deaths by firearms is statistically insignificant in a population exceeding 300,000,000.
Then too, even the high estimate of 2.1 Million "successful defenses" anually (using fireams) represents involvement by less than 1 perecent of the population.
Again, my intent here was not to take a definitive position here but, rather to spur discussion and debate on the subject.
Paul H
10:00 pm on Thursday, March 29, 2012
How do you expect to survive without a gun when they bad guys come aknocking ?
They got guns....without permits...but they got em !
Gary Englert
12:05 am on Friday, March 30, 2012
@ Paul H: Nothing I've written should be misconstrued to mean that I'm opposed to legal gun ownership.
I think the larger question (given the statistics available) is whether or not the entire gun debate is disproportinate to the realties of legal ownership and use.
Joe Gonzalez
11:30 am on Friday, March 30, 2012
Its time to confront the banks who take our collective deposits & make business loans to the gun companies who make far more firearms than the legitimate market needs. The result is the oversupply ends up on USA streets in the hands of crooks hellbent on causing death & destruction.There is a long history of people uniting & using their bank deposits to change corporate behavior. The Montgomery Bus Boycott and the South African Apartited Movement are two such examples. Let's come together & tell the banks that if they take our collective deposits & make business loans to the firearm makers--we the people will pull our money out their banks. Occupy the Banks!
Gary Englert
3:23 pm on Friday, March 30, 2012
@ Joe Gonzalez:
Yours is certainly an interesting take on things but, I would've hoped to spur some discussion on just how big a problem gun ownership and use actually is in this country.
Again, if there's validity in any of the data out there, how truly significant are the actually number of incidents in a country 0f 300,000,000 people?